How to Meditate, Interview – April 16, 2010
HTM: What form of meditation do you find most effective?
Lisa: You know, this word 'effective' throws me a bit. I personally think of meditation as our natural state, and the practices we are accustomed to calling 'meditation' as tools for showing us that. So I don't really think in terms of 'effects'. But it is true that a lot of different techniques get thrown under this label 'meditation', and they all have different effects. If you want to manage stress, deep breathing techniques are the best.
If you want to manage pain, various energy techniques and visualizations have been shown to work. From a spiritual perspective, I think it is very personal, and we get drawn to whatever we need, based on our intent. For myself, I was drawn to chakra and kundalini work early on. I didn't even know why at the time, it was just where I found myself. Now I understand it as a very personal proclivity of mine.
I see and experience the world as a matrix of energy lines and currents, and always did, from a very young age. So meditating on these energy centers and currents within my own being was and is a natural practice for me. But these techniques are just a starting point, a way of opening the doorway, to our natural state. It can be opened many other ways.
HTM: This is all good to hear. To move on to my next question... You speak of being aware of energy centers and patterns at an early age. This can be overwhelming and a little scary. Was this the case for you?
Lisa: No, as a young child, it was not scary at all. It was just the way the world was. And often it was my sanctuary— this world that was light and fluid. I accepted it at face value, although I did not talk about it much. As young children, I think most of us are very open, and in tune with intuitive layers of awareness and perception.
These close down as we get older, partly because of social and cultural pressures, and partly because of the natural development of our sense of self, particularly as we enter adolescence. And that did happen for me. After that point, when I would have spontaneous experiences and some of the 'old' awareness would break through, I resisted it more, and did develop a fear of it.
I thought it meant I was weird, that I wouldn't fit in. So I pushed that side of myself away for awhile, and forgot about it. It didn't resurface until I discovered meditation in college, or really several years after that. Then I started to remember those early experiences, and own them as part of who I was.
HTM: Can you tell me about your first experiences with meditation in college?
Lisa: I was initially a dance major in college, and both yoga and Qigong were offered as part of our movement studies. At one point I was having problems with neck and head aches, and I tried everything to get rid of them. The yoga and Qigong classes were the only thing that seemed to help. That really got my attention, and I started to think and wonder more about the mind-body connection.
Then during the summer, a friend took me to an Insight Yoga meditation class, and I had a dramatic experience while meditating on my third eye (the sixth chakra in the forehead). I felt like time and space collapsed, and I was floating in this field of light. I kind of went in and out of this state for a few days afterward. It was really a classic kundalini rising experience, although I didn't know that at the time. It triggered something— it really became the starting point for my conscious spiritual search.
HTM: It sounds as if the energy in your head and neck wanted to move up and out. What a wonderful story of time and space collapsing. I can relate to that. I too have had many classic kundalini rising experiences. I would like to focus on the kundalini for a moment, before we move on. Can you track over time when the fire reached particular chakras, clearing them?
Lisa: My own experience has not been that linear overall. In formal sitting meditation I can feel the energy rising up through the chakras, and I have had specific experiences where I felt deeply immersed in one chakra or another, or periods when one or another was opening. And I can look back and see that different phases of my life tended to orient around 'themes' associated with each chakra— say personal power (3rd chakra) for one period, or learning to love (heart chakra) in another.
But I haven't experienced the process overall as this linear progression, and honestly it doesn't seem to be that way for many of my students either. And because of that I have come to think of the classical 'story' of the kundalini rising through one chakra at a time until it reaches the crown as an archetype or myth of the spiritual journey in general, as opposed to an absolute map of the process.
I feel that for most people, the actual process is much more circular— we are moving back and forth between the themes and energies of the various chakras all the time, and there are multiple levels to each. So it's not really a matter of one being opened and staying open— we can experience our heart opening, but then later in life, we can experience that again, on a deeper level. And I think this is true for all the chakras.
I also think there is a difference between balancing and opening the chakras from a healing perspective and experiencing them as opening as part of our spiritual journey— this is also a matter of working with them at different levels. The levels are connected, but never-ending. And of course many seekers are not drawn to explicit kundalini/chakra work, and experience the awakening process very differently.
Many of my favorite contemporary teachers— Gangaji, Byron Katie, Eckhart Tolle, don't reference kundalini work at all in their teachings, and I can relate to that also. So I love the chakras as archetypes of different psychological and energy themes, but I don't really relate to that classic model of the kundalini rising one chakra at a time. I am more into a model of integration at this point, of living every aspect of our life as part of our path, and the different themes of the chakras are useful for that I think.
That's not to say that some people don't experience the awakening process as a linear progression through one chakra at a time— I am sure some people do! I don't want to sound like I am dismissing the experiences of anyone, or the classic writings. But in this day and age, we have access to so many different models and paths. I think it's clear it's an entirely unique experience for each person. That's part of the beauty of it really I think!
HTM: I really got a great deal out of that response. Thank you. That was very rich and full of insights. There are so many places to go from here. One of the reasons I actually wanted to touch on kundalini is because it shows up so rarely in modern teachings— perhaps because it could become a very fascinating and potentially distracting subject. You mention that "in this day and age, we have access to so many different models and paths".
Several decades ago when some very strange things were happening to my body, I was hard-pressed to find any real material on what it might be. A few books in the back section of the used book store is where I finally got some answers— all to do with kundalini. The internet was just starting to emerge, and now there is so much out there.
The work of Carolyn Myss was helpful when Anatomy of the Spirit came out. Where is the best place to go for those who are more interested in this subject and wanting to understand kundalini. I use this word, but what I am referring to is the universal primal developmental force and energy that is corrective and healing in nature.
Lisa: I also like Anatomy of the Spirit by Carolyn Myss, I think it makes the chakras and kundalini accessible to anyone. I also like the work of energy healer Cyndi Dale, although she writes more for fellow healers as opposed to seekers, but there is a wealth of information in her books, particularly for those experiencing physical symptoms, as you did.
There is also a book that came out last year called Kundalini Rising from Sounds True publishing that is a compilation of essays by many different seekers, teachers, scientists and authors, all on different aspects of the kundalini experience. The first part of the book is personal experiences, which is very helpful. Beyond that I think it really depends on what a person is going through.
As you mentioned, the internet is now full of information, and there are many more yoga teachers who work with kundalini now also. Part of the reason information was hard to find for so long is because the kundalini traditions were historically very secretive. It was believed that explicitly working with the chakras and kundalini could be dangerous.
I interviewed Cyndi Dale awhile back, and she mentioned that she was given a hard time by some when she first started writing books for the public on the chakras and kundalini. Many felt that kind of information should only be passed from teacher to student. But of course, this is a very old story— virtually every mystic tradition in every culture had strict limits on access to information at one point or another.
Personally, I think the age for all that is past. There is a groundswell of spiritual interest and awakening occurring at this point in history, and much (if not most) of it is happening outside of traditional lineages and institutions. So it's time for all this information to be available— people need it. As for the more general question of where to turn, although it may sound cliché, I do believe in the adage that 'when the student is ready the teacher will appear.'
I do think that when we truly put out intent or a question, we will be drawn to the right book, teacher, individual, or situation to help us. So that is always the first step, in my view. Does that answer your question? I wasn't sure if you were looking for concrete resources, or more general insight.
HTM: That was perfect. Great information and exactly what I was looking for. I'd like to focus back on your own personal and direct experience with meditation. I feel it is most encouraging to hear stories of personal success along these lines. Of course, success implies a goal and as you mentioned in response to my first question, effectiveness focuses on this same goal which can be very different for each individual.
In my opinion, these paths ultimately lead to the same point— that being heart, center, and greater awareness— which is evidenced in grounding, relaxation, healing and even transcendence. Regardless of path, self is realized more fully— a self compete with all of its diversity from one individual to the next. That being said, what method do you yourself routinely fall back on or gravitate towards personally that gets you most centered and self-true?
Lisa: I would say chakra meditation and nature meditation have been the two constants in my path, and are what I do regularly. Daily I usually start my meditation with some chakra/energy work— I will generally rotate between the core 7 chakras, combined with either mantra or breath-work. Sometimes I use music, sometimes I don't. I will often tailor this part of my meditation depending on how I am feeling. If I am feeling at all frazzled or off-center, I may spend more time on my 3rd chakra.
If I am feeling off-balance or emotionally edgy or closed, then I might spend more time on my heart. If there is something I need to 'see', some issue or question I have going on in my life, I may spend more time on my third eye. For me, this is the value of energy work— that I can look at my awareness and help address things I find there. But after that I just sit.
I may start out focused on a particular chakra— usually the heart, third eye or crown, but then I let go of that focus and just sit, and let things unfold, let things settle in. The amount of time I have for that varies— during the week these days, with young kids, this lasts until one (or more!) of them get up and come in to get me. So then letting go of my meditation time, and tuning into them, is part of my practice. On weekends my husband takes the kids all morning, and I sit for as long as feels right.
I also try and get away regularly on my own, as I do find I need some extended meditation time on a regular basis, especially when I am teaching. Either way, I usually end my meditation with some kind of “metta” practice— sending compassion out to people in my life— ultimately the planet— and then gratitude practice. As I mentioned, I also spend time out in nature a lot, and meditate outside quite a bit. Sometimes I will connect with a tree, sometimes the ocean, sometimes mountains (depending on where we are.)
HTM: Do you sit in any particular posture during these meditations? And outside of music, and of course nature, are there any other tools that you make use of while meditating? Also, I am curious as to whether your young ones emulate you and join in meditating? It's so great that they are being exposed to it. I am wondering what their take is.
Lisa: I do sit in a traditional cross-legged position, although more of a half-lotus than full. I do keep my spine straight throughout, which is usually taught as a requirement for kundalini and chakra work, since the energy moves parallel to the spine. However, I don't consider this absolutely essential— more of a goal. I always tell people to try and build up the core muscles around their lower back and abdomen to sit up straight during meditation, but by no means to sit in pain or feel like they can't meditate if they can't do this.
Nature, music, mantras, and breathe techniques are the primary 'tools' that I sometimes employ. I also teach visualizations associated with the various chakras, but honestly for myself, I don't use them much. I have never been very visual, although for some people visualizations are very useful as a starting point. As for my kids, they are still very young— 5 1/2 and then twins that are almost 4. Since on weekdays I typically meditate on my bed right as I wake up, they do come in and join me on the bed when they wake up themselves. Sometimes one of them will sit in my lap, or right next to me.
They don't formally meditate, but certainly I believe they feel and absorb the energy— as does my dog, and every dog I've ever had for that matter— friends and I have noted that meditation cushions and corners are usually the favorite napping spot of pets! With my kids, my approach is to expose them to meditation, both through my own practice and children's books that incorporate it, but not push it.
I want them to think of meditation as a natural part of life, and if they ask me to teach them more about it, I will do so, but I don't want to push it, for fear of them rejecting it because of that— like a baseball coach whose kids won't play baseball! I have taught them how to belly-breath to calm down, and how to chant 'Om' for the same purpose, and they are actually aware of the chakras because of some children's books I found on the subject (they love the colors of course), but they don't do any formal sitting meditations. We'll see if that evolves or not— I am trying not to have any preconceived notions about it, so I can just respond to them when the timing feels right.
HTM: I'd like you to paint a picture if you will (in words) of the very close-to-home simple value that you experience in meditation. If you had to distill it, and get down to the core reason for why you meditate, what would you say that is? I know you are a teacher, and so you are called upon to describe it for students. I'd like you to take the time to look inside now and tell me why, as if you were looking at it for the first time. What is meditation for you? What is its value for you— just you. Describe what you discover through it for yourself only.
Lisa: What I discover, over and over, is that I am light—that we are all light. That it is all OK. That at the heart of it all is peace—that the essence of each of us is a natural great peace. It is hard to put into words!—for me anyway. Whenever I am asked to answer a question like this, I wish I was more of a poet. I love poetry, especially the poetry of mystics throughout the age, because they can capture something— or rather, point to something— with words that I cannot do. It is really beyond words.
Humans have come up with a lot of words to describe it— every mystic, teacher, and spiritual author comes up with their own words for it. I always just come back to 'light'. And I've already said I'm not all that visual, in meditation anyway, so I don't really mean the kind of light we see with our eyes. This light is beyond the physical sense, and yet the heart of all experience, physical and otherwise.
HTM: That was beautiful and said it all. Your words are rich with what you mean. It is a simple statement to say that the heart of everything is peace, and yet there is so much to that. Hearing this can be extremely encouraging. Just a hint of it is enough to bring us back to meditation. Thank you so much for opening up and giving it a shot, because it is beautiful. It is by its very essence incapable of being put into words as you have said, but referring to it directly helps.
Everything else is simply the means to it, but these are the goods— or rather this is the good. There is so much love in your first paragraph— so much acceptance. Okay, I have one more question. Given that you discover over and over again that you are light, and that we are all peace AND that I find the same thing (though I may call it something different) and may find it by different means, what do you believe these means have in common? I hope you understand what I am asking.
Again, words are limited. Here it is in a different form: What is it that we actually do, those of us who speak of this peace and light— that makes the difference? What is the most essential requirement of a seeker, more than to simply be seeking? Whatever it is, I want to call it meditation— but that is just a name. What does this peace require of us in order to tap into it?
Lisa: Integrity and surrender. I decided to just answer this question intuitively, and those are the two words that came immediately to mind. To me, integrity means always looking inward to our center for guidance when we are feeling lost— trying to connect with our inner compass. We may need external teachers and guides, but in the end, we come back to that center for our final guidance. I have been working a lot with mandalas lately, and they are all about the center-point.
We each have this center point, and staying in touch with that keeps us grounded and truthful as we seek, even in the midst of doubt, or mistakes, or whatever. And to me surrender is letting go. I think meditation, and the entire spiritual journey, is this delicate dance between self-control and letting go, will and surrender. And we get lots of support for self-control and discipline— we receive lots of messages about regular practice, watching our thoughts, taking control of our lives, creating the life that we want.
So that part of the message doesn't really need more support, at least not in our culture. But surrender gets less play. There comes a point when in order to know ourselves as something larger— not just intellectually, but to really KNOW— we have to surrender control. So integrity and surrender are really what are asked of us, I think. Is that really the last question? I'll answer more! You ask great questions. It's been a pleasure to be involved in this process.
HTM: Okay. Honestly, I feel like we have just got onto something. The kundalini conversation took us off to the side a bit. So, I will ask a few more questions, if that is okay. I am intrigued by your answers. Integrity and surrender— integrity I suppose is the quality that arises out of integration. Our biology, for example, expresses impeccable integrity following the designs of Mother Nature. Our bodies are integrated. This integrity is in place.
If we become scattered and lost due to our focus on personality and ego, then we lose touch with this integrity. Our choices arise out of ideas instead of this integrity and health often suffers as a result. So getting in touch with our center is in essence getting in touch with our most integral self— at the core— the source from which this integrity emerges. I can see that, yes. Surrender, for me is similar in that we are letting go of personality, ego, ideas and all that distracts us from heart, core, source, and simply being.
I don't know if you are familiar with the work of Esther and Jerry Hicks and The Art of Allowing. It is very interesting material and suggests that it can ALL happen by itself. To jump around a bit, you also mention teachers. There is the expression that "when the student is ready, the teacher will appear". In my opinion, the teacher is already and always here in the form of circumstance. We are surrounded by that which is perpetually giving us guidance if we can manage to pay attention.
For me, meditation IS this paying attention, regardless of what form it takes. If we surrender or let go of motive and ambition and allow, we will witness what we need to. If, on the other hand we remain caught up in our ambitions and our egos, then circumstances will continue to throw us curves attempting to startle us into awareness by a turn of events.
Both these paths, voluntary and involuntary, result in either a temporary or long-term dropping of our preoccupation with peripherals, and so we focus on our center— THE center. So, here come the questions. Do you believe anything beyond this "paying attention" is necessary? Do you believe anyone and everyone is fully capable of getting in touch with their centers, if only the impulse or intention is there? And when, if ever, do you feel a teacher (and I mean another person) is necessary?
Lisa: Well, I have been sitting on this one all day! Because I think I could write pages on it, so I wanted to get down to the essence of what I really think. First off, I love your definitions of integrity and surrender. I had not thought about integrity and integration in quite these terms, and I really like the biological angle especially.
As to whether I think everyone is capable of finding their centers— or in my terms capable of knowing themselves as pure light— YES. I absolutely believe this is the birthright of every human being. But I also think that for most of us, it is a much trickier business than is often portrayed. For most of us, there are layers of conditioning and ego-identification that we need to face and see through in order to find this deepest self.
We can have experiences of this falling away, and more and more people are having this experience in this day and age. But that is not the same thing as knowing this, as dwelling in this light or center, and living from it, all of the time. For most of us, doing that requires digging pretty deep, really getting into our 'shadows' and facing them, and releasing them. It goes beyond 'experiences'.
I am really trying to avoid words like enlightenment, liberation, self realization or awakening here, because I think they can become traps. And I am not sure everyone is always talking about the same things when they use these terms. Who says there is only one spiritual goal or endgame? Who says we are all seeking the same thing? I am not sure we are— I think there may be many different 'goals', and thus many different paths.
I didn't used to think this way. It is a change that has occurred recently. So whatever we are talking about, you asked, do I think it requires more than 'paying attention'? I guess that depends on how you define paying attention. REALLY paying attention, really being in the now, is seeing reality directly, without the filters of our conditioning or ego-identification. So perhaps there are some people, many people maybe even, who can do this without a teacher.
And certainly I agree that circumstance is often our best teacher, when true intent is there. But many of us can't break through solely with this, because the ego seeing the ego is a very tricky business. And there are traps we can fall into along the way. Teachings and teachers are meant to help us through this trickiness and these traps. And what kind of teaching and teacher we need is very individual, and will come to us also when true intent is there.
HTM: I felt a great deal of understanding, compassion and deep caring in your response. It IS a difficult business, I agree. If you like integrity and integration, try on ignorance and ignoring. I believe our ignorance is due to paying less attention. Ultimately it is up to us to look deep within like an archeologist and unearth all those unpleasant monsters and clean that all up— even when much of it was created out of necessity.
It requires tremendous patience, love towards self, and courage to take on this responsibility, as so many of these shadows are due to our early environment having been internalized. We each carry our own genetic and behavioral inheritance of human suffering. As far as the goal goes, I do believe it is the same for all. I don't believe freedom comes in different flavors. I believe there is one freedom that we all share. It is that same space, deep within.
When you say that we are all light and peace, this is that same space— where dimension, nature and energy collapse into one heart— and that heart is free. I believe also that when we find it, we know this. Until then, we only sense that it is there and so our goals are defined by what we know. This I believe is what causes these goals to be so diverse— not really understanding what we are looking for, and hearing about it— reading about it— wanting to believe we can find it.
I agree with you about teachers. The human heart is both simple and complex. That level of complexity and refinement when open is so beautiful. We learn so much through the process of relating with other human beings. I think synchronicity and the law of attraction does much of this. If we seek out a teacher then this is one expression that can be met.
I cannot tell you how many times a complete stranger has made a remark that was exactly what I needed to hear— or a non-verbal encounter with someone that will strike hard at my complacency, self-interest, or stubbornness. I am perfect now, of course. This was all long ago. Choke. Cough. I am enjoying our discussion. I am hesitant to throw in so much of what I believe, as the structure of interviewer and interviewee feels as if it starts to break down— and I want to honor the intent of this process. Then I realize that the more I get involved, the deeper the conversation can go, so I keep writing.
I have had someone ask me why I meditate with intent, with the argument that I would be exactly where I am developmentally had I not. I don't know what to say to this. I suppose whatever there is in me that pays attention will pay whatever attention it can. Is it all really my doing, or is it beyond me? This may remain a mystery— just like any other form of hindsight. Sometimes seeking is the very thing that is in the way. What do you think about this? Would you be exactly where you are regardless of what YOU think YOU do?
Lisa: Well first off (and you probably don't want this in the interview, I don't know) on whether the goal is the same for all, I did definitely used to think this way, and on some level I still do. It is what my own experience leads me to. But in the last few years I have been very immersed in a lot of women's spirituality writings, and also have befriended a prominent spiritual artist whose work I respect, and in both those realms have come across a lot of people who are actually offended by this idea.
I also was reading about 'star seeds' recently, an idea used by many Akashic Record readers, and came across the same views there. It's a big topic, so probably too much of a tangent to share here, but it has been an interesting exploration. As for your actual question, I do think seeking often does become the very thing that is in the way— along with 'techniques' and 'practices' and all of that. We miss the forest for the trees, or get trapped in pursuing dramatic experiences, or get trapped in a 'spiritual ego'. I was recently reading Adyashanti's The End of Your World, and he did an excellent job talking about all the ways we can hang ourselves up on the spiritual path.
But I also think these are necessary phases for most of us, and seeking with some intent is necessary. If that were not true, I think we would have a very different world— the world at large does not (in my opinion) reflect a reality that everyone is awakening to the peace within themselves naturally. We have free will, and so we have to choose to seek, and it takes some effort. To me, this is why mystic traditions have sprung up in virtually every culture around the world— seeking is a fundamental human activity that gets discovered over and over through different means.
At the same time, it does seem like so much of it is beyond me. When you ask "Would you be exactly where you are regardless of what YOU think YOU do?" I think it again brings me back to this idea of surrender, and of the delicate balance between will and surrender on the path. We have free will, and we choose to embark upon the path, and we have to choose over and over to stay true to it— many times along the way we get lost and have to make a choice as to whether to stay lost or get back on track.
It's like in The Matrix, deciding whether to take the red or blue pill, only we make that choice over and over. And yet, even with all that 'choosing', there is still some sense of being swept along by something larger— of being pulled home, almost magnetically. It's a mystery really, and magic. But then again, back to my first paragraph, maybe not everyone experiences it that way.
Maybe you and I and many of the spiritual seekers and teachers we are drawn to have had similar journeys, but many others out there are being pulled home in an entirely different way, without intentional seeking. I don't know. I love discussions like this, but at the same time have become somewhat wary of them, mostly because many people over the centuries have claimed to know exactly how it all works, and it usually ends up in a war of some type! I know that's a big leap, but I also think it's somewhat true.
HTM: Thank you for all of that— your point on war in particular. I appreciate everything you are saying. I don't believe either you or I are comfortable with claiming to know "how it all works". When you spoke about us all being peace and light, I believe you hit it on the nail. I also want to address your remarks about the goal being the same for all. I would like to rephrase everything I said about freedom being the goal. What I really want to say is that I believe that freedom is our starting place and birthright. Goals are something very different and deal with manifestations and expressions of that freedom, which is diverse in the extreme.
For me, recognizing this freedom is paramount before any goal need be considered. Otherwise those goals are tainted with programming. Some of us find enough comfort in that freedom that no further purpose need be designed. Meditation is for me the means by which, regardless of the technique, for recovering that freedom. Must we do anything with that freedom, once recovered? Is it not our identifications, ambitions, and goals that set us up for conflict— i.e. this is how it works? Perhaps this idea alone is too much to suggest.
Lisa: You know, your final questions here are exactly where I am at the moment— how to be of true service, service coming from light, as a vehicle of light, instead of from ego. Or is that desire just ego itself? So I am working through this one myself right now, hence some of the waffling that may have come through my answers. I feel I am an 'action' being, I have always been an active person, and now my karma has led to me having three kids!—(which I never thought I would have BTW, I was practically a monastic for many years).
So somehow, my life seems to have led me to a point where I am supposed to be engaged. And I do believe nothing, no experience, is wasted. So I am trying to see at the moment, exactly how I can let myself be 'used' by the light, I am trying to surrender my purpose, and allow myself to be guided, while remaining every vigilant for signs that I am acting from ego. And I am not quite sure yet where it is all going!
HTM: Krishnamurti in his book As One Is asserts that self-knowledge is not cumulative. I love these words, as they remind us that there is no way to know where it is all going, or for that matter, who we are apart from this light and this moment. Your "trying to see at the moment" is a good sign, I believe. It is when we are certain of something that we are not really present. In certainty we are carrying some narrowed view, missing life, and attracting conflict. I don't need to ask any more questions, but I wanted to offer you the opportunity to respond and say anything more you'd like to say. I have really enjoyed this discussion with you.
Lisa: 'Self-knowledge is not cumulative', I love that also, and I feel the truth of it. And yet increasingly I do feel called to act in the world, in a way that I did not feel pulled to even just a couple of years ago. I think it is partly based on becoming a parent, and partly just a reflection of that 'active' nature I talked about earlier— that this is the way light comes through me.
I do think of each of us like this unique prism, with the light coming through us and refracting into the world in a wholly unique way. Some teach, some write, some paint, some become involved in social causes, and some simply dwell in being. I have enjoyed our discussion also, and really don't have anything more to add.
HTM: Well put. After all, what is life without expression? I believe that the quality of that expression and its integrity lies in our willingness to drop ego, big plans, ideologies, and surrender to inner light— allowing that light to naturally ignite and inspire our activities. What a great process. Thank you again for participating.